Interview with the Cairo 5
Full transcript of my interview with 5 ex Egyptian army officers.
GJ = Gonzo Journalist
After a few days' prep where I familiarised myself with the official narrative around the rise to power of Abdul Fattah al-Sisi, the current President of Egypt, I am sitting in a small room in a Cairo apartment block with 5 Egyptian army reservists. Two of whom were commissioned officers and three, non commissioned.
With no attachment to their rank I will refer to them as soldiers A,B,C, D and E
Soldier A is my main contact and it is thanks to him that I am here.
The room is lit by various battery operated torches, a result of the ongoing, regular power outages that are part of daily life in modern day Egypt.
The 5 men had decided that soldier A would be their spokesperson as he speaks the best English, that he would speak his answers in both English and Arabic and that we would use a translator app to ensure that what I wrote was an accurate reflection of what they told me.
As a starting point I asked about the 2014 election results.
The abbreviation GJ refers to me, the Gonzo Journalist.
GJ: My first question is this, if Sisi is so unpopular, how did he win 97% of the popular vote.
A: The election was false. In the days leading up to the election, truck loads of serving soldiers were sent to collect people's IDs so that they could be taken to polling offices. All of these votes were cast in favour of Sisi. People had no say in who they voted for and anyone who complained was either beaten or warned that if they did not comply they would not see their families again.
Supporters of Sisi were also there, taking details of anyone who protested about what was happening.
GJ: So are you telling me that the election was rigged in favour of Sisi?
A: Yes absolutely. (The other soldiers joined in vociferously to indicate their agreement)
GJ: You told me that when you were a serving officer, you were bussed to deal with opposition protests against Sisi, can you tell me about these.
A: We were just working, it was a normal day in our barracks when we were all called together and told that we were to go and take off our uniforms, dress in normal (civillian) clothing and to go and wait at the entrance to our barracks. I asked what was happening and was told that we would find out soon enough.
GJ: Did you and your colleagues speak to each other about what you thought was happening?
A: We assumed that it was to do with The Brotherhood, the army had been cracking down against them since Morsi was removed in 2013.
GJ: When was this?
A: When we were told to take off our uniforms?
GJ: Yes
A: This was at the beginning of August 2013
GJ: What happened next?
A: When we assembled our commanding officer told us that we were going to Cairo to protest against Morsi’s supporters. We were told that there were members of Isis amongst the Brotherhood and we were to keep an eye out for them.
GJ: How did you feel about this?
A: Many of us complained, there was a lot of support for The Brotherhood, they had helped many people in Egypt with food, housing and money etc.
GJ: What happened when you complained?
A: Those of us who protested were taken to jail for three weeks.
GJ: Soldiers were locked up?
A: Yes. All 5 of us were jailed and while we were there we were beaten by senior officers. We were told that if we didn't change our thoughts we would not see our families again. It is for this reason that we agreed not to make further trouble. The beatings were nothing, we have all received many beatings but when you are told that you never see your children it makes you afraid.
At this point the other 4 ex soldiers took turns to describe their treatment whilst in jail and showed me injuries they said were a result of beatings they received whilst in custody. I asked if I could take photographs of their injuries but they were afraid that they could be identified by the photos. They ranged from broken fingers and noses to damaged eye sockets and scars / marks on their backs and stomachs.
A: We are proud to serve our country, our fathers fought in the war against Israel and are heroes of Egypt. We felt ashamed to be treated like this.
GJ: You told me that this isn't the only time you were locked up by the government.
A: No, I was jailed for wearing a bracelet with the Palestinian flag, in support of Gaza.
GJ: Could you tell me about that. When was it?
A: In January this year (2024). I was stopped at a roadblock in Cairo and the officer asked me why do you wear this? He said ‘you are not a Palestinian, you are Egyptian, why do you waste your time with this?’
I said that why shouldn't I support our brothers and sisters in Gaza, we are all Arabs.
GJ: What happened then?
A: They took me to jail in Cairo. In a police station. They kept me there for three weeks and every day they told me I was not going to see my kids again.
GJ: Were you charged with anything?
A: No, after three weeks they let me go and said not to make the same mistake again.
All 4 of the other soldiers added that they knew of people who had been arrested for supporting Palestine.
3: You need to be careful wearing your headscarf. It is in the colours of palestine (black and white) You should be safe and wear a green scarf. (directed to me).
GJ: When we first spoke you told me that you would speak about the events at Rabba square. Could you tell me again what happened there please.
A: After Sisi’s supporters removed Morsi from power, people were very unhappy. Morsi was elected in a free vote, Egypt was a democracy. As a result of this the people occupied two places, some went to al-Nahda Square and many went to Rabaa al-Adawiya Square.
They were unhappy that the will of the people was being ignored. Morsi was not a good leader but this was because of Sisi’s supporters.
CONTEXT;
The military had stripped President Morsi of all executive power on the eve of his inauguration.
A: It was the same like the other time. Many soldiers including me were told we were going to Rabaa to help the police deal with Brotherhood supporters. Many soldiers were angry because, I have said, we have no fight with the Brotherhood, we are all Egyptians and should help each other. If we have differences we should discuss them.
We were loaded onto buses and sent to al-Rabaa.
GJ: What happened there?
At this point soldier A went quiet and turned to his colleagues. The 5 veterans of the Egyptian army spoke to each other in Arabic and I could not follow the conversation.
After a short conversation soldier A told me that three of his friends wanted to leave now. He said they were too upset over what happened. The three of them went into another room in the apartment.
A: This makes me very hurt and ashamed. When we got there the fighting had already started. We were told that the people were terrorists and we needed to kill them. They said the police had done most of the work and we needed to make sure that we showed that the Army was loyal.
GJ: Were you involved in the killing?
A: Yes. I am ashamed. My friends are ashamed. That is why they have left.
GJ: When was this?
A: You know the time, it was August the 14th, 2013.
Soldier B spoke to soldier A in a mixture of English and Arabic and they decided that they did not want to continue the interview.
Soldier A explained that this was due to sorrow at the memories of what had happened and also out of fear of what would happen to them if they were caught speaking to me.
Soldier B left the room and returned with the three soldiers who had left the room earlier.
A: I understand and I am grateful for your honesty and bravery.
Would it be correct of me to say that the election where Sisi came to power was not a free and fair one. That the vote was rigged and that President Morsi was removed from power illegally by supporters of President Sisi?
A: (after conferring with his colleagues)
Yes. You are right. The election was stolen and now we suffer.
